When Coaching Goes Wrong
In the When Coaching Goes Wrong podcast, I am joined by coaches from all sports ranging from current professionals to the grassroots level. All these coaches share something in common- they have experienced failure. This ranges from not managing individuals within a group correctly, applying the wrong type of training methods to the detriment of results, having a winning-at-all-costs mentality, or the many other unpredictable factors that are present in a dynamic and ever-changing coaching environment.
The guests show vulnerability, and self-awareness when sharing how they came through these struggles and importantly lessons they learned. These lessons can be used to normalize failure as part of the coaching journey, illuminate any blind spots coaches might have, and overall provide hints, tips, and ideas on how coaches can reflect on their current coaching practices to ensure they are creating an excellent sporting environment for their athletes.
When Coaching Goes Wrong
It Was Tunnel Vision Towards Rugby Championships | Rama Chand
Ever wondered how a nation forges its way from the ranks of tier-two rugby to the pinnacle of tier-one? That's exactly what we're unpacking with Rama Chand, the Georgian Rugby Union's Director of Rugby Development. Through an enlightening dialogue, we reflect on his international journey and dissect the strategic endeavors propelling Georgian rugby forward. Rama Chand sheds light on the pivotal role played by the Black Lion franchise team in cultivating local talent and the broader implications of bolstering a strong rugby ecosystem through dedicated coach and referee development.
Straddling the line between player and coach is no simple task—it's an art form that demands finesse, and it's a narrative I'm intimately familiar with. As we wade into the complexities of dual roles, I peel back the layers of the emotional labyrinth that player-coaches navigate. Sharing personal experiences and the wisdom gathered as a coach educator, the conversation offers up strategies that player-coaches can adopt to thrive—not just survive—within their teams. This episode is a treasure trove for those seeking to understand the emotional intelligence required to lead and play simultaneously.
Finally, we broaden our lens to the overarching themes of coaching and team management across the sports spectrum. My personal coaching philosophy has evolved over the years and, in this episode, I lay bare the lessons learned about adaptability and redefining success. We chat about the unique challenges of foreign coaches assimilating into Georgian culture and how embracing local customs can deepen both personal growth and coaching prowess. Whether you're an aspiring coach or a seasoned professional, this episode is a map guiding you through the terrain of professional development, mentorship, and the relentless pursuit of coaching excellence.
Hello and welcome back to the when Coaching Goes Wrong podcast with me, craig Wilson, the contact coach. In this episode, I'm joined by Ramachand, who's currently the director of rugby development with the Georgian Rugby Union, and what I like about Ramachand is that he's well travelled, but he's also had roles within rugby across the whole spectrum, from community through to professional. He's worked with the Australian Rugby Union, the Queensland Rugby Union and that's led him all the way now to Georgia, which is just great to hear about. Ramachand shares some wonderful experience, plenty of nuggets to take away, and he is one of the perfect guests for this show because he just shares so much. So settle in and enjoy this episode with Ramachand. Hey, ramach, thanks for joining me. Mate, I hope all is well. Just let me know where you are, what you're up to.
Speaker 2:Thanks, craig. Thanks for having me on Just seated at Tbilisi right now. In our home in a nice suburb called Vakke in Georgia, the kids are in bed for now, mate, so everything's rosy for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get the kids in. That's one of the main ones. The coaching comes easy, right. So, hey look, you're obviously in Georgia, tbilisi. Anyone in the rugby world knows about Georgia and we feel like we've been talking about up and coming for a long while, like when are they going to get that support that they're really going to be dining at the top table, which we all know they can do? So just tell us a little bit more about how you got yourself into Tbilisi.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate. So I was a bit like yourself. I probably knew about the union and the country just obviously from rugby and following rugby and coaching and playing and stuff. But yeah, I didn't realise how close I guess they were until it was, I guess, propositioned to me by Recruiter for the role to come over cross. They are still clearly a union who wants to try to get to the top of the tree, which is fantastic, and they're pretty targeted around a couple of key positions that they feel is going to make them sort of make that shift.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I guess when the Recruiter and you know we were rugby and that discussed it and I went through the whole process, that's what I liked about it was the ambition to move from sort of that tier two and to tier one and to sort of separate themselves from that sort of next group. And you know there's obviously some key things that the union is working on hard and some people might have seen some key markers that we've been hitting, which is pretty good but still a long way to go and I think that showed at the World Cup. You know we probably underperformed big time compared to where we sort of wanted to go. But I think 27 and 31 are still on track mate. So 20, 27 World Cup, 20, 31 World Cup. I think you'll see some really good things coming from Georgia.
Speaker 1:Excellent, it's really exciting. So what's your day to day role there?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I sort of come into a role that's essentially managing the talent pathway, so basically all of the so-called pathways that feed into our national team and our franchise team. So we've got a franchise team that's doing really well called the Black Lion. This is the first year they've been sort of allowed to enter into a European club competition. So EPCR for some of the listeners that might know and they had a good win in the weekend against some Scarlet's and Wales. You're going to beat the Scarlet's right. Yeah, really big great news.
Speaker 2:And to be honest, even last week at Home, mclosty, we probably let that game slip. We lost that one but that was a game that we probably should have won. But anyway, the Black Lion are very successful franchise that's been created a couple of years ago. The whole idea is to try and retain talent in Georgia because obviously a lot of our players, best players, go to France. They haven't franchised locally. Hopefully you can keep some of them, you can make the staff work with them for longer and then about 50-60% transition into our national team, you know.
Speaker 2:So the idea is that I sort of feed the programs that support that. So you know you're under 18s, you're 20s, you're 7s, you know you're even younger than that. Academies that do that. I also have quite a wide remit so I also sort of do the traditional game development side of things here for Georgia as well. So a lot of that involves you know things like coach education and overseeing that. You know the referees now are in the remit, all of the strands.
Speaker 2:Essentially you know your S&C, so your workforce, and then you also have our clubs and competitions. So basically, how do we improve our clubs and competitions so that there's consistent depth, that are sort of supplying the talent pathway and you're basically trying to improve all of that. And you can imagine for a lot of tier 2s, I guess that's a big missing link. For a lot of them is what I just said and tier 1s have had that and obviously, coming from Aussie, you take it for granted that you have all of those structures and you have all the depth. You might not have the best talent necessarily, but you have those things pretty laid out. So I think for tier 2s, this is where some of them, I think some of the smarter ones are targeting, you know these types of roles to try and look forward.
Speaker 1:Because you're all in it together, right like you're a referee in, you can referee better games. The players are getting exposed to what the referees are looking at. You've got the under 18s coming through to the 20s, it all just, and then the coaches on top of that, just because if you get the coaching right, it can have a significant trickle down effect. It sounds great that everything's kind of been aligned there. So how did you? What is your coaching journey? How did you get to this point? Now, yeah, where did that all start?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was interesting, mate, I was thinking about that. I guess my first touches of coaching were probably when I was a player. You know, I didn't realise that at the time, but I was probably doing a lot of coaching myself, just maybe because of my position and leadership qualities. I guess that coaches identified. So I remember when I was in Dubai I was doing a lot of assistant coaching with some of the coaches essentially running a lot of sessions as well at times as well for our teams.
Speaker 2:And then from there I probably got more involved with coaching in Amsterdam where I was playing over there and that was sort of like an arrangement where you come across, you play rugby and then you do a little bit of coaching as well. So I did a little bit of coaching there. But formally, I guess, from an actual start, it all started about nine years ago, nine years ago in Australia when I moved to Aussie, and in Queensland. So I sort of got into it there and originally the role was player coach role at a club and then from that obviously just moved away from the playing just into coaching from there, mate, and how did you find I've done player coach myself?
Speaker 1:how did you find that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of guys who've had their hand in both parts, I guess the player coach comes about. It's definitely not for everyone and I don't think I did the best job at it as well, like I'm sure a lot of player coaches think I struggle. Yeah, yeah, and I've noticed that a lot of coaches I've talked to who've done that have always said the same thing. But I guess it's a double edged sword because the club or the organisation might see something in you that is leadership quality, but you know they push you into a coach role so you share resources. You can add value as a player, add value as a coach, so they get it sort of double, double for one, but you probably never really do one or the other at the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly what I found. It was always interesting. I was a player head coach and I found out.
Speaker 1:I wasn't even playing as best as I could. So now, how do you pick yourself? You know someone who's up and coming and you're like well, no, I should be playing. It's such a hard distinction. However hard it was, the grounding as a foundation to build from was invaluable. So you've experienced a bit, but just the ability to have the opportunity to start coaching in an environment where you had to have you had to justify it, you had to have reasons why you were doing it. It was invaluable, but it's a bloody tough role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think on that. Like, obviously there's very rare at a professional level you get player coaches because there's resources, so you don't necessarily need that. There might be leaders, obviously, of certain areas of the game, of course, but I think at that sort of that amateur or even semi-poor level sometimes you know, if you get clubs that are interested in, you obviously want to transition because you might not know where you're going to go now, what's next? So you naturally just think it's a natural transition.
Speaker 2:I think it's hard because, like you said yourself, you've probably got certain standards and then because of your workload, you might not be able to keep up with those standards and then you're picking yourself, you're picking others and it makes it a little bit complex and I think if you had more resources it will help. If you're a coach at a club level and then you had a couple of good assistants around you and things, then that can really maybe work. But what I've found most of the guys who've done it haven't had much resources because they're trying to juggle a lot of balls in the air, you know, and sometimes it can be difficult.
Speaker 1:So good question here, for you give advice to those who are about to enter it, who are going through it or are considering it. What main bits of advice would you give to those who are in that player coach role to try and get the most out of the experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, first of all, like you said, it's very difficult if you're going to be head coach and play coach. I think assistant coach or like a leading area of the game, I think absolutely is manageable. I think you've just got to be really clear and aligned with your coaching team or your management team what the markers are. The standards are that the players need to meet. Because you're a player, you need to meet those standards number one. Number two I think you need to be really clear to the players, just like you would in any coach. You know clarity on selection, clarity on how you want to play, clarity on core skills that you need.
Speaker 2:And then, number three, I think you just need to be really consistent with the messaging, because I think that's pretty hard when you play coach because there's a lot of emotion. Sometimes you get tied into the emotion a little bit so you ride the highs and the lows. You know and you might expect a certain standard that isn't being delivered. So you emotionally might show it, because I've noticed players will show it a lot more than say a coach might show Traditionally. That is, some coaches obviously very emotional when they see things happening in games. But I think if you can manage that part. Those are the three things I'd say you should try and get really nailed early and then, like anything, just be really consistent with those three things you know.
Speaker 1:Good advice and, yeah, I often found that the hardest part was Making in-game decisions. You know, you know when you're when you're fatigued, when you're tired, so that's the best thing I did was lean on other people and that's exactly what you were saying. They're like let Everyone understand what the situation is and like right and then clear roles and responsibilities, like game day, I needed to have the Substitutions, for example, in the replacements, and maybe a tactical change. I needed up, I needed input from people on the outside. So, yeah, just getting everyone aligned, you know, because there's a lot of people out there who are doing it right now. But player controls not often, often discussed, but many of us in our coaching journey go through it.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, and and on that one thing that just jumped to me, when you said that Hard as the other support, like, I think I think good, good coaches work out, firstly that they're a support mechanism to an outcome and those players are trying to get there and you're just supporting them to get there. So I think sometimes, as play coaches, you feel like you're the Whether you like it or not, people might look at you as you're the holder of the decisions, holder of the power, perhaps. So I think, I think just, and it's very difficult that's why we said it's difficult because you're in game, sometimes, you know, at training, and you actually you don't have the lens where you can take a step back and just watch everything, because you're in the middle of actually running a play or Making a call, or you know. You get what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah so I think, I think just trying to try to just, yeah, remind yourself that Whether you're playing well or not, you're still the support mechanism for Every single player there and even for yourself, so sometimes you just need to not be so hard on yourself as well around your performance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's interest as well, that that role often the player coach role is often defined by an experienced player in experienced coach. Yeah, that's a really unique situation to be in, because a lot of people are looking at you because you've probably led really well and that's what's got you to and you've played very well and you've got yourself in a situation where you can play and and lead the team but also You're now coaching. But you're Normally an inexperienced coach. It's not normally super experienced coaches because it normally comes with time in a saddle right and experiences. You're looking at those people in around there, kind of early 30s, like you are coming to the end of a playing career.
Speaker 1:So it's such an interesting juxtaposition between between the two. And then so, if we look at it from an inexperienced coach point of view, what, what has helped you Kind of accelerate your own load? And I also know you were you're an esteemed coach educator as well. So what sort of advice do you do you give or talk about now on on the latest coach education courses or Excellent accelerating people's development in that area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, good, good queer, good question, man. I think I think you got your stages, like you said, of coaching. So I think, if you're relatively inexperienced, I would recommend, of course, getting into the system, so called, and reaching out to your local, where it's a state or a national body, and going through the Creditations. Obviously, your credit is now are changing, as we know, craig, it's more about who you coach, you know. So that should match, match an accreditation, versus Sort of being the linear journey of level one, level two, level three or four. So now it's about what athlete do you coach and what skills do they need and what's the content resource that will help me provide that. So that's number one, especially as an inexperienced coach, because a lot of it, a lot of the literature sort of, is around the how-to coach, you know, like sort of the, the processes, which, which is something that you might lack, and then and then the other. The other side to it is as you sort of move through.
Speaker 2:I think you've got to diversify your learning, you know, so I think you might have your formal stuff, but you obviously have a lot of opportunity now to Find resources online or watch webinars and things like that. Obviously, you've seen you've run some really good, really good stuff with some really high quality Coaches, you know. So anyone who jumps on that sort of stuff if they want information it's, it's accessible, you know, and usually is very low cost as well. So so I think, diversify. Diversify your learning, I think, as when you get get start doing that regularly whether it's podcasts or watching someone or webinars or Attending on watching, watching coaches at your club or watching coaches at school who you find that are quite experienced, that you like their style, I think you'll still reach a ceiling.
Speaker 2:So what I mean is I think that's where that's with the secret, and I Identify a couple of really good guys or mentors or girls that you can mentors, who you can really talk to. I found that that, for me, really accelerated my, my learning, because it's because mate like, once you get to like, you're probably the same mate once you get to like a level four. You know, master trainer, and you do. You always gonna keep learning, but what?
Speaker 2:I mean is you need. You need some point of difference and I think I think that's where the mentors come in. So the quality of the of the mentors you surround yourself with and the regularity of those conversations, I think will help a lot. And I was really fortunate because, obviously, being an environment's like the reds or Very best rally, you know, I guess I could access a little bit more around certain certain Coaches or who are pretty experienced guys and They'd already been been there, done that, so they sort of knew what to what to advise you on, and a lot of sometimes it was tactical stuff, but most of the time it was more human, more just managing people, mate, you know, and trying to get the howdy howdy you sort of get the best out of, or teaching. So it was usually either pedagogical stuff or um, androgontical stuff, or um, or more human, human, human tips. Because I think the group management stuff we underestimate when we come into leading teams that are 32 to 50 people, you know like it's, um, it's, it's very challenging. So I think I think Literature is very difficult to teach you that until you, until you're doing it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so the advice I give is number one the best learning is going to come from doing. So. Try, coach as much as you can in different age groups, different formats, men, woman, etc. If you get, if you're lucky enough to get that opportunity number one, number two Really really be proactive in your learning. So go out, get on the podcast, get on webinars, feel free to drop people messages. You'll be surprised at how many come back. And the third thing was Absolutely tap, tap a few, two or three key people that you think might be worth having a one-on-one coffee or a Zoom or something with and sort of picking their brain a lot more. And I'm trying to maintain that relationship because I think the best, best mentors I've got a couple of guys made that I've been talking to for the last three, four years, no longer five years. That, that, um, that we just we just catch up. And it might not necessarily be a coach shadow, might just be you become, you become friends. Yeah, essentially, don't you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, really, that was certainly there is. When you mentioned around Just just reaching out to people, you know like we find in our environment that People are so accessible. When I was sport which is is unbelievable I found that first hand like even just reaching out to you and reaching out to other coaches and just setting up calls and setting up chats and the things you learn and Obviously you're learning as well, but often as well there are firming things that you'll do it. So it's like it's a, it's a nice confidence boost there and if you are willing to keep going out there and and not every kind of coaching journey or learning journey is the same. So I I started coaching at 21. That's the best thing I ever did, because and I coached anything in everything in between, so from from age grade performance stuff through to special needs rugby, to hearing impaired rugby, to adults, to men, to women and it's just all that grounding and I actually didn't interested.
Speaker 1:I didn't finish my Bachelor's degree, I went over to Hong Kong, wanted to coach and it was all about time in the saddle for me and I managed to get on to the. The level three at the time in Australia was the highest one A few years ago now, and then from that experience, what I built up, I was allowed to go straight on to a masters of performance. So this is like a big win for me, like I could go straight into a masters and something I wanted to do. But I built up that knowledge and then essentially what it did I I could now underpin the theory To the practical, which often it's done the other way around.
Speaker 1:We learn the theory first and then, and then go into the practical, which I I just thought was a really unique thing. It was nice Looking at something and studying and going, ah, I've done that or I didn't do that, or I can apply it immediately. So that was just a An interesting journey for me and, like coaching, is not always, as you mentioned, a linear. A linear goes around everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah that, um, yeah, like I like how you said that. Yeah, you just you just threw yourself in and started, started getting involved and coaching multiple levels and stuff, and I found that was the best experience. Sometimes, you know, like some people like in Aussie anyway at times might say, are you catching everything? And it's sort of like our dig. But it's like a trade mate, like you want to get this trade. Or like my wife does, my wife does teeth, you know Like, so yeah, you need to process stuff. So for her to do that, she's a practitioner, so she needs to do a lot of repetitions. You'd experience from repetitions and know what molds and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:It's the same with coaching. You know, like you, you gotta Gotta learn from, learn from doing number one, and I like I like the fact that Same time you can transition the formal learning, you know education stuff, straight into pitch grass because and I think the good, good providers of education now understand that really well that there is an absolute, absolute link, like there's no use running through a course three months and your next training session is six months away or four months away or five months away. It's, it's best in the context, you know, I think the learning. So now that's good mate, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So wait. So you moved, you went over to Amsterdam player coach, holland Player coach, and where? Where did? Where did the journey keep going from there? Because you've been everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've been lucky enough to do that Well, I was quite proactive in that as well, you know. Yeah, I ended up in Aussie, up in north Queensland. So I've been north Queensland and this is where another real good coach experience happened, not not so much the player coach role for the club that I was talking about, that I landed in there, but more the the work that I did as a development officer when I started at their ads and I think again a lot of guys Might have gone through these do development roles. And again you highlighted before like you literally are coaching the spectrum like you got a kitty can't catch a ball and of aid anyone versus a pathway player who's going to be the next rare or wallaby. You know, like literally you're talking to both of them, you know. So that was really good experience because you just again mate.
Speaker 2:The main thing is you're just doing so many repetitions of coaching, you know, like in different levels, and that was probably where I really jumped and I think from that in the time at the Reds, you know, obviously got exposed to a lot of the world rugby Curriculum as well and I think when I first started my educator a long time ago. You know that that really gave me the ability to take one, one more step back. You know I was never really a you know that old school Sort of dictatorial, blowing the whistle 100 times type of coach. I was never really like that, you know. So I didn't have problems transitioning into a more Placented approach I think I was reasonably placented, not always, but I think so, um but. But that taught me a little bit more, even to take one other big step back and really look at it from a, from a from a um, from a lens of of the coach, you know, and and what does the coach need and how can we help our coaches now develop their skills.
Speaker 2:And then, obviously, carried on through there, move from North Queensland, did, did some of the regional teams, so coach regional country rugby and did some of the like North Queensland men's and Mackay and stuff, and then moved down to Brisbane, mate and Brisbane obviously, and Aussie. I don't know if the listeners know and I don't know how many, I'm aware of it, but you get two big hubs or there's, there's more hubs. I'll be, I'll be careful what I say, but but the two, two big hubs of rugby, um providers for the national team of Queensland, new South Wales, mate, and Brisbane and Sydney in particular. So so there, that, there we, we are talent, most of your supply lines coming obviously for country kids and regional kids moving into these teams they call them premier teams and then from that obviously you one step away from a academy or a super rugby side, you know.
Speaker 2:So, um, so yeah, I was, I was like quite fortunate that I got involved again with with uh approaching in the Queensland Premier competition and then a club level and then also very fortunate, that did some work with the Reds throughout a lot of their pathway teams and things like that, mate. So it gave me really good exposure, you know Did you ever have any cross-pollination with League coaching wise or playing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no more coaching, I'm more interested to do. They do similar things to Union in terms of their coach development programs. Yeah, just I would love to learn more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did it myself. I didn't at all. I would have loved to have seen that like absolutely, I think, because it's so competitive mate for talent in particular and you could say eyeballs and you could say participants too. But realistically, like AFL and League are very far ahead. You know, in the Aussie landscape, you know in contact sport, and that's just because of because of money and a lot, of, a lot of things. I don't want to get into that. It's a big, big conversation we could have on that. But but in terms of the education side and coach development and talent development, I would have loved to have seen a lot more collaboration. I know it happens a little bit more in sport.
Speaker 2:Australia is quite proactive and running conferences and things now. And example I've been to when I was an Aussie you went to two conferences. The first one, like some of those sports, were not present. I don't know what for them I'm not even busy or I don't know. I thought there was a need to go and collaborate. I don't know the year after they were there. So that already started discussion around management of people to stay in the game.
Speaker 2:But also, how do you take that in harness talent and what is what does the young person need you know to to continue their journey? I think that's one area, mate, that that league and union in particular, can do really well, because, remember, all the players play both and I see like all the kids are playing both, just on different days. And then it comes to a time where one school might be prioritising one over the other. Then you sort of have to pick. But then post school, even unless you're really on a pathway, you don't really you can probably still juggle both, you know, if you really had to. So coaches should be aware of that and coaches should think and collaborate more Obviously. At the professional level, mate, you get a lot of crossover of league coaches going to rugby and union coaches going over. But yeah, from that one level back, I'd love to see a little bit more collaboration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can learn so much more from from other sports and, like other sports can learn from rugby as well. I think we're doing a lot of things right in our environment. Yep, I'll be interested to know. Like, obviously, coaching we always look into to put our best foot forward all the time, but there's there's times when we kind of look back and go all that that probably didn't go as I wanted to or it wasn't how I envisaged it. Have you heard any experience in there where your coaching hasn't necessarily come across how, how you wanted to, in any way, shape or form?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course, man, absolutely you know, I think I think over time you know like sometimes, at the start of your journey, you know you're very, you're very convinced around the path, you know. But but as we get more experienced, we know that that path will change multiple times, especially in the season. You know, and and it's how you adapt, that's, that's literally the key. It's a bit like my players the best teams usually have the best ability to adapt, same as the coaching group, you know, and I guess for me early, early days it was very much sort of tunnel vision towards championships and towards finals, and this is how we're going to get there and you guys need to meet the standard versus, especially in the play coach days, which is not good. But but now it's more about a look what do we want to? What do we see as winning, like this defined winning, and it doesn't have to be championship, it could be the process, you know, it could be certain measures throughout the season, it could be human, human things, and then along that journey we may find that we've just built a culture of success and performance. So it's going to, you're probably going to be on a good path.
Speaker 2:So that was one big difference around that and I think early, early days made I think again just being far too far too technical, tactical driven. You know, especially tactical. But you can only build tactics around the team. You got number one the skill sets they have and the desire to do those skill sets and work ethic. You know. So if you, if you haven't got a group, that's gonna. You know, if you're dealing with amateur guys who are only going to train twice, twice a week, play on a Saturday, have a beer or 10 after games, and that's enjoyment, that's what good looks like, then you just got to accept that and take it on the chin and I'm going to change that. So I think early days probably fought the battle a bit too much around that Thought everyone was a professional, when clearly 99% of people were probably not, you know so actually drink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was probably a bit of my own expectation, because on my head I'm going well, I would do that, I would do those extras, I'd get there early, and so you guys should be able to do that too. That's not how it works, so I think I think you're just managing expectations in your brain. As a coach, early days really, really important.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting because often you into coaching, I've got to be very mindful now of like, you have to be aware of your own biases. You, absolutely, because you, that's if you don't have a lot of coaching experience behind you, that's what you're going to go to. You know, you hear the story all the time of the dad or my mom coaching the drills that, because they would, they were running them 10, 15, 20 years ago. You know, like, and it was like, okay, that's just re-gurgitate, or but your biases are so critical and there's nothing wrong with having them, it's just understanding what they are and do the align with the environment you're you're trying to do, so tell me maybe a bit of.
Speaker 1:Is there any stories around some of the conflicts that you? You came across when you were like, right, we are going to get there early, we're going to train more, or whatever those were, and and then how you overcame them with, with the playing group?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, maybe I, maybe I didn't, I don't know if I did overcome them, you know. And one of the seasons I guess it was just around, you know, setting, setting, I guess physical standards around conditioning, which you and me both know a lot of amateur players will shy away from unless they're really really self driven guys. So number one, you take them from zero to 100 is probably a little bit unrealistic. So I probably could have managed that better. But yeah, just just just expectations are conditioning, expectations around commitment. You know that team in particular, no one was professional, so everyone had a job, so people might come late or might not be able to come because they've had to do extra time and sort of being a little bit uneasy about that. That it was happening far too often, you know. But it's the nature of the beast mate, like they're not paid guys. So you got to expect that, you know. And I guess, rather than adapting more, just sticking, sticking to the standard, you know that was step. So I guess the learning is you eventually find that although you're play centered, you might not be putting on sessions that everyone's enjoying because it's maybe far too serious or far too tactically driven, you know, versus more focusing on connections with that team.
Speaker 2:I was not really talking about that team. But then yeah, and I guess I mean we still did reasonably well, like we've made finals and stuff, but we didn't get to where we wanted to. We didn't win anything like we didn't win the main thing. So the point is I guess it was a bit of a disappointment for me, but that's because I was a very young, novice and experienced player coach, you know. So, looking back, would I say that team was success. Maybe, you know, I don't know, we would have to ask the players more, but I guess, from a look, if you look at it from a results perspective, I did reasonably well, produced some players who played in the representative, quite a few players plays in the representative team, etc. Etc. So maybe, but probably from an enjoyment, did they really enjoy that season versus other seasons? I don't know, you know, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I guess the takeaway is yeah, you got to know what environment you're working into and you got to figure that out sometimes pretty quick, especially if you're flying in, like you've been flowing into. You're not from that town. I've never grown up there, I don't have the culture there, I don't know what normal is. So you've got to really adjust quickly and it'll take time, like you got, to figure that out. So maybe not going so hard at the start, you know, and just sort of freaking your way through it would have been, would have been a better, better approach.
Speaker 2:And you can do that in seasons, greg, because you've got, you got time. But obviously in campaigns you can't do that. Campaigns are short. You've got to hit the ground running a little bit, you know. So if it's a representative team or even national team and stuff, maybe they only have little blocks of training, you know. But if you've got a season where you've got a preseason, you got the you know preseason games, you got round one round, two finals, grand finals, off season. You know, like I said, you got, you have a little bit of leeway. So I think you got to know you're coaching this team that's in a season and catching a team in a campaign. You know. Work that out and then go from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and figuring out their motivations right, because you could. You could argue this is not always the case, but you could argue that the teams who are on a representative side are maybe a little bit more hungry for the tactical side. Maybe we are trying to get and this is all. This is kind of all kind of generic, and maybe your club rugby team there's going to be those those characters in there who just want to play Tuesday, thursday and a weekend warrior, and there's. There's nothing wrong with that at all. And it's all about, as a coach, understanding because it all compounds, right. For example, when you you come in, you want to be these fitness standards and these times and this, and they're like well, I'm there on a Tuesday night, the weather's probably a bit miserable. I had a hard day at work. Am I going to go to training to get flogged, because that's not my motivation, or am I just going to stay at home for now and then maybe rock up on a Saturday because they might need me for numbers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's so funny because they know you need them. You know how many times of coaches I spoke to coaches as well and I've been there as well going if you don't train, you ain't getting picked. And then all of a sudden, you have eight people on your sheet.
Speaker 2:You're like I better.
Speaker 1:I better, I better come, I better meet them halfway. You know, it's all about just initially going in and really just figuring out, like how do you get there? And there's a beautiful question what do you want to achieve?
Speaker 2:Yes, what do you want to achieve?
Speaker 1:And then you can start to a lot. Maybe you can bring some performance. You might be able to do it a slightly more delicate way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's that's whether it's that team or the last team, that a coach or whoever like. There's obviously a big gap in so-called performance, but and in quality of talent. You could argue, but the thing is that, absolutely, as a coach mate, you've got to just remember you're the support to them getting to where they want to go and the ability to establish that early on. Where do you want to go, okay, what's acceptable, what's not? How do you want to go there? Guys, tell us, let's discuss, challenge them on a couple of things in a healthy way. Maybe they're being too unrealistic You've got to also call that out.
Speaker 2:Maybe they're being too under, under, under setting their target. So you just got to, you've got to. If you just do that, I think, early days with the whole team. So then please, management and players, I think that can really really nail a lot of the oncoming challenges. You're going to have to manage, of course, everything throughout the season, but I think establishing and going back to clarity, I think that'll really help everyone keep a little bit more aligned, because you're always going to get disaligned at times throughout the season.
Speaker 1:And then it comes back to if you, if you've asked them the question and they've they've put their name to it, as they say, it becomes a lot easier. Like, like, like, fellows or girls, this is this is what we plan for.
Speaker 1:And then and then the art of the coaching is in the subtlety, right. How do you slowly get them to change their behaviors, which they never thought they could? They might not even figured they wanted to do, you know? But how do you go? Oh, if we just nudge it here. You just turn the temperature up a little bit. But, yes, it all comes with understanding where the alignment is, and I think that's such a powerful thing. Now, when you were going through this, did you only know upon reflection, or did you know at the time, going, ah, yikes, this isn't, this isn't going where I wanted to do, or did it take time to to figure it out or process?
Speaker 2:I think when you're winning, we won most of our games that year, but was the performance up to the standard that maybe? I thought probably not. So I think when you're winning, things are easy. You can sweep things away a little bit because you're winning. It's a little bit recently, like with Georgia. Recently we won a lot of test matches and everything's all good and rosy. But then we know that success of unions is the ability to succession plan and future proof. When you have those tougher games and when you lose, how do you bounce the next one so you don't lose two on the track. That's really important.
Speaker 2:So I think for me at that time I felt it probably that this wasn't going where I'd probably expected or wanted to and again, that was very coach-centered. I think a little bit to think that way because I probably didn't do the stuff we just talked about before. But then obviously, post-season, you know, if you know that if you haven't made a, you might have improved guys, absolutely there was. Guys probably played some of their best rugby, but did they really enjoy themselves? I don't know, and it was probably more driven by me, not necessarily driven by them, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you enjoy yourself? I?
Speaker 2:did. I did, but towards the end probably not. I think, because of what we just spoke about, you probably. And that wasn't a good thing, because I think the players could sense that and as soon as I think playing group senses the captain of the ship so-called is a bit sort of. You know, you might not be showing it as much, but you can tell when someone's having a good time or when they're really not. And it was different because I was paid, you know. So it's not like a voluntary role. So you obviously have to be there and you want to be there, but you play.
Speaker 2:I think you've got to be good at hiding emotion is the right way, I'd say it. I think I'm pretty good, but I think I can be pretty. I think you can know if at that time and I've changed a lot, but I think you'd know if I thought we were up to standard or not, you know, and yeah, I guess, looking back, yeah, it definitely wasn't. I think my expectations were far too high for the group that I had. You know, I expected them to be rock stars when they were never going to be, you know, and I wasn't a rock star coach, by the way, so you get what I mean, so you just got to get that part right.
Speaker 1:So Intra, so when? After that, where did you move on from there? Where did you get? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah. So because I was with the Reds, I still continued, obviously doing a lot of the development. I still worked there. But then coaching wise I was obviously, I guess because you sort of work ethic and you're drive to coach and levels and all that stuff. I coached the representative team, you know, the men's team, sevens and stuff. So I sort of did the representative for the whole region, so you sort of move up so-called. But most guys would do both. I did both like at a club and that you know. But then I just stopped the club, so I just stopped with the club and just did the rep stuff. So yeah, that was again even rep standard.
Speaker 2:You know, like you said before, you probably got a player who's a little bit more driven, but it will motivate it for success. Might want to be identified for another team or something you know. So maybe that was a better fit, maybe that was a better like for like at the time. But one thing I've learned, like I said in the podcast, is, yeah, the role isn't the about necessarily always the fit, it's about how can you support them to get to where they want to go. You know, and I think that's where, if you really realize that more often.
Speaker 2:I think that's better than always going, because me as a coach it's pretty driven, I think, as a player, so I probably wanted to just get like for like teams, you know, like straight away and coaching, and it doesn't happen like that, mate, you know, and then you've got to manage your expectations along. If you do ever get there. You're lucky enough to get there and you've got to realize that, mate, it's a journey, you know, and it's not about you're not better than anyone and no one's better than you, and it's just about process and supporting people to get to where they want to go.
Speaker 1:Sorry. So maybe next time, if you went back to that club team, you would start the first session free season session with a crate of beer in the middle of the field and go right, boys, here we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the old school Aussie way, mate, I think, as they'll get a box and get into the sheds and they'll sort it out. But I think you're going to do a little bit more than that, obviously. You know, and you got to, you know, you got to probably. You got to probably ask the right questions and figure out the motivations of people in the group. You know, and I think I think that team probably had far too many of those sessions, to be honest. Yeah, Well, that's the thing it's all about.
Speaker 1:You don't have to like when you're looking at a player group.
Speaker 1:You don't have to be best mates with all of them with any of them, but you just need to have a very mutual, respectful, coach player relationship and or even just human relationship outside of first player, I think, first and foremost. And that's where you can start to build that alignment, because then you can ask questions what are your motivations, what are you trying to do on an individual level? And then they might marry up with the team level and then at the end of the day, at least you can coach about one individual like to the best of their ability or what they're trying to achieve. And if you do that 35 times with other people it's bloody hard. But if you can get that alignment and also they know where you're coming from, and that's really really powerful tool. Like if you've got vulnerability about, okay, well, this isn't going as I thought it might go, and like help me. You know like it's amazing when you ask for help how often people do help you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that includes the other staff or the playing group, sometimes the people you trust. And yeah, just building connection first. You know connection first and then technical, tactical second. You know that whole character of the cover drive culture is strategy for breakfast, that type of stuff. I think just, yeah, connect first and then and that's been my approach here in Georgia, by the way, like it's very much around coming in and building relationships with the locals and the local staff first, and that took a little bit of time last year and then then you can start to push and pull a little bit in terms of the strategy and what their role is in that strategy and giving them, you know, room to, you know move up and down and learn and fail and support them through that. So that's definitely been a big shift connection first.
Speaker 1:So, moving on to Georgia, this is from the outside looking in, so I would love to know if I correct me, if I'm wrong this sometimes feels fairly transient, with people head coaches, for example coming and going. And how does it work with foreigners coming into a Georgian environment, particularly if they've the locals have seen it all before, and at what point does so? Yeah, mainly I'm just asking how, how do you go in, knowing you're not from Georgia to establish yourself in that environment, but also saying I'm here to help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure. I think I think this is a real good, real again. It's a bit like that player coach. You could do a podcast just on foreign guys who go over to coaching countries with the languages in English and and I think, yeah, this is, this is a real, real good topic made, I think.
Speaker 2:I think, first of all, the beauty of Georgia in general is they treat foreigners sort of like a gift from God. They call it. It sounds a bit cheesy, but they sort of do really go out of their way to make you feel Go home here with my wife and two kids. They really do try to go out and make you feel like at home and make it at ease. Then I've been really fortunate because I've had a few key people who are always basically around me, really good English speakers, really young, competent, yeah, and and hungry for knowledge and hungry for conversation About the game and about about how to do things. So that's been really useful.
Speaker 2:I think without that it'd be a bit tough. So language, so having language support number one, really, really important I think. I think the whole foreign staff like I'm probably the only, just to get on my head, there's one Osteo who's been here for eight years who's lived here, but I'm the only other, I'm pretty sure for a know who lives there, the last head coach. Obviously there's a Kiwi who's steady with this family as well and he's stated for eight years as well, but there isn't that many that come.
Speaker 2:Most of them are Coming in going because I've come for blocks, especially if they were one of the teams.
Speaker 2:So, national teams is the only one that have foreign staff the rest of Georgian okay, which is which is a good thing, I think and so they'll come for periods of time. I'll stay at one of our OB bases or a hotel or something and then go back. So that's a different experience to someone who actually is embedded. Day to day Conversation down the road, you know, getting groceries, coffee shop, coming home and getting in taxis and stuff. This is a very different experience. I think. Unions, unions overall, when you are that guy or you've been in jobs like that, like yeah, I think there's always you gotta, you gotta, really, like I said, build relationships. They're also interested in you and your story, you know. So, just like you are, and then, because you're keen to Assimilate culture with language, you know, I think going out of your way to learn the language I think will help. Like I've learned a little bit. I can learn probably more, but I think I'm reasonably okay and I'm gonna help me, give us, give us some.
Speaker 2:Oh right, oh, you put me on the spot. I could say. I could say go much else, craig, I've got a car. Or she's like hey, craig, how are you mate? You know, like sort of thing.
Speaker 1:I.
Speaker 2:Probably that probably sounded terrible. Hope, no Georgians are listening, but that's gonna be.
Speaker 1:That's gonna be the podcast title for my Georgian my Georgian fans.
Speaker 2:No, it's a cool language. Right, it's a cool language, I really, because I like my history, craig, and I just personally I really into history, culture and this country's got tons of it, mate, like it's got an ancient civilization, only language that's spoken in this country and nowhere else. I own alphabet, things like that. It's very, very cool. So it's quite interesting for me, you know, just being here.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I think I think you got to be aware of things like you know, perception of the foreign guy, what, what's he, how long is he here for and where's he going next, or does he generally want to make a difference? But sometimes some people use Opportunities like this is a stepping stone, you know, to somewhere else. It's quite common like a lot of guys that have come in here have gone on to other quite quite good things. I called teams and national bodies, but I guess me coming from a wish to alia, sort of probably it's a bit different. You know, like you, sort of going from tail on to To and then you get what I mean. So there's, there's, I think there's awareness of that.
Speaker 1:And your role is very much embedded in in more, yeah, the community as well as performance. Right Like yes, yeah, it's very small strategic.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah it's definitely more physical. So I guess my my stuff, I was doing some stuff for that. We got an AGM coming up. I was just noting down some of the things we've done in the past year in a bit.
Speaker 2:It's really sometimes you forget that you're, that you're making difference with your staff, you know, because you're underground All the time and obviously Georgians are very passionate about their rugby. So if you don't do very well at a World Cup, you know you feel it and day-to-day if that makes sense, but then. But then you look at all the things that we're actually doing really well, like there's some real good stuff, like real good wins that are around now. I'm not just I'm taking on field. I'm taking off field wins and performance and building capability and people and you know, and building more structures and doing more habits. Slowly, you know we've still got a long way to go, I think, to catch up to the tier one, but I think we're on the right path and I think you'll see, like I said, 27 World Cup 2031. I think that that's when you probably start seeing a lot more of the results that you probably set up here.
Speaker 1:You know that that are coming through Hopefully what makes you, what makes you feel and live that on the daily basis? What, what are you seeing on the ground which is leading to those predictions? What, essentially, we all want to happen? We all want, we all want Georgia, we all want Portugal to continue on their way. We all remain in Tonga and so, like, we all want more. Maybe, maybe the big wigs outside of the Six Nations don't, but we, we, we certainly do so what? What gives you that feeling that Georgia and rugby is, is going to be a force to, to be reckoned with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's, I think just looking at our, I think I think honestly, like I start, overall staff quality needs to needs to massively improve and then I guess part of my role is to try to help do that. And that's just being brutally honest. I think we're still a little bit away from A tier one sort of level. But that's not a rugby thing, I think it's a country thing. Great, I think there's a lot of country and societal challenges with the whole past and Soviet and all that stuff that that are around. And it is true Don't get me wrong We've got some really sharp, sharp Georgian staff, but there's not, there's just not enough of them.
Speaker 2:There needs to be more and we need to build more and create more, you know, and we need to give them exposure to a lot more experiences. I guess we're working hard on that. You know. We've, we've, we've created a lot more connections with Country, especially in the UK, that we've got staff now Going and learning and doing and coming back and and things like that. We're also supporting a lot of our staff with a lot more CPD and all that sort of stuff. We're pairing them a lot up, a lot more, and this is something they do really well with certain age groups or pair up with the above age group and above, and there's a lot of trickle down. So there's a lot of Lyman but also a lot of sharing of knowledge. But but yeah, we need to. We need to build more depth so that we can challenge, like more Georgians should be able to challenge Georgians for jobs. It shouldn't just be foreigners coming in and being far too far ahead of us. I mean it should be actually George telling Georgians for the jobs. I think that's when you'll really get stuff success.
Speaker 2:But from a players, players perspective, I think it's very healthy, great, I think. I think you only have to look at our results and in our age groups and I think most, most people who follow the age groups would know that we're pretty. There's no real tier 2 to one age groups. For tier one, mate, it's yeah, we win a lot of the games we play. You know well cup, the finished 8th and missed out on a semi by points difference, you know, and pretty unlucky not to get a semi. And and then, admittedly, we didn't win the last two games. You finished eighth, but eighth is still the highest. They finished that at 20s Well cup and 18s of I don't know and been unbeaten in Europe for I don't know how many years. Next year will be interesting because next year will be in the Six Nations festivals find 18s so that'll be good.
Speaker 2:So that's a return used to be in it quite a few years ago and and that'll again give our players a chance to win it used to be in it quite a few years ago and and that'll again give our guys at that 18 year old the right right like for like game, you know which is what they need. And our sevens you know sevens are in the Challenger series. You know, upcoming, which is first for a while. We could probably do a lot better if we put a few more things into that program, but for now it's it's still delivering on what we'd like and we're trying to. So part of my challenge, I guess, is trying to embed sevens into the pathway so it supports 15s. It's not a standalone, yeah, so much that we're actually trying to produce more quality players and stuff through the sevens program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we never we never gonna be rock stars and we're not trying to be HSBC series winners and stuff. We want to get to an Olympics, absolutely Once it's the sevens Olympics and we want to be producing again professional players. That that's the outcome for the sevens model for us.
Speaker 1:And and expose in coaches to performance, environment, basis 100% and habits, and yet absolutely could you take away the X's and O's of it, which there is slight, slight differences.
Speaker 1:But in terms of the, as you said, the experience, the pedagogy, the yeah, to travel in, the learning, how to travel, the learn for play, performance, coach, development, yeah, all the lines nicely. I actually remember I was coaching Hong Kong. I used to work with Hong Kong who had really brilliant resources. It just didn't have the, yeah, the player base like at all, more the size. But then terms of the, the infrastructure was gold and we used to regularly and we still do. All the Union still does play in the world trophy and we used to play Georgia and used to get, we used to get flogged. But my point is Georgia are not even near the world trophy now.
Speaker 1:They're regulars in the 20s World Cup like that. That just shows you the growth and that was what, probably 10 years ago, I was just a coach in that environment. And now the step up once they got there, georgia stayed there and then that's the future crop you're coming through these, those guys are probably in the national team now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think I think that's where Georgia's big challenges of the country, you know, like, I Think our youth, youth and 20s and those other programs are gonna continue to do well, but because, because, obviously, a world, junior World Cups every year, you know so it's good, you get to play the best teams every year, whereas our national team, as you know, like, we're quite restricted around who we get to play often, and that's that's important made and I think that's the beauty of what EPCR is doing for a country like Georgia. You know, like, as you see to, regardless of what teams are on the park, their professional teams, like an English team We've got hundreds years of history. High quality players have produced multiple England, england's nationals. You know, and you're playing them. You're playing whales. Whales teams are doing the same and you can, you're playing them regularly at the franchise level and you're beating them. It shows that. It shows that you deserve to be there and and it's not even about deserving to be there, it's actually about just someone opening a door for you to, you know, allow you to do that, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think this, there's obviously pros and cons to this new model that we're rugby wants to go down From 2026 year in the top 12 and the end of the two-tier pros and cons. I think, um, yeah, I think I think if they just could just make a primary location earlier it it added suit in a suit, georgia rather than 231. But but yeah, I think, I think you can. You can't really control the test match competitions you're going to get, but if you can continue to open the door for the franchise team, I think you'll find when those competitive test matches come up, you're much more prepared and we might get a few more scopes in that tier one in the coming years as well, particularly because you've got your you mentioned earlier 60% players playing day in, day out there, and then your bigger stars go out and get their knowledge in the wider European game and then come back Much like is it Haguare or Shakua it's used to do with.
Speaker 2:Super Rugby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they used to do similar right, they used to come back and yeah, but most of their team played in that team, you know, and it made up the bulk of it and that's a good top talk as well, craig, because that Argyz are a bit of a unique entity in that, like they still got their best players over in France in particular, and some in Italy and stuff, and they're unique, whereas you've seen teams like Georgia, fiji it's really accelerate their test match rugby through having a franchise, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting how different teams can do it, and one of the things we're doing more now, which we're really trying to drive more and push a lot more, is getting our young guys to get environments that aren't just France, because that's traditionally been the pathway for Georgian players the Undead Indies Undertwins France National Team, whatever we're trying to. Like example, we've got a few boys over in the UK right now, you know, getting different coaching. It's different opposition, different style of play, different weather conditions, different resources, and you obviously come from the UK. You'll know how some of those schools are very much. I hate to say it, but it would be schools, you know, rugby's, everything sort of thing.
Speaker 2:And they create good environments to produce good young men. So, yeah, we're trying to get Georgians exposed to that. So we've got a few boys over there now and we're probably sending a few more. There's a lot of demand as well, as you can imagine, from schools, so we want to just give them exposure to different environments, different coaches, different eyes, things like that.
Speaker 1:What I noticed about when Georgia player. Everyone regularly talks about the scrum, formidable scrum. They can ball as well. You know like there's some very, very skillful players in the Georgian setup very quick, very athletic, tough, but they're skillful. It's not just built on a big scrum, which is a foundation of any successful team, but there is people who can really really play rugby there. So in the right consistent environment you can see where it's going to go.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:All right, just to wrap up, I normally ask a few questions around where do you get your continued learning from? Is there any places you particularly look in books, in podcasts, wherever people can go out and explore?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely am a podcast guy. Like I think whether I'm walking to work in the gym I jump on a podcast. Usually it's one of the ones around leadership or you know your performance podcast and things like that, or personalities Like I know. You know obviously guys like yourself and there's quite a few others that are doing some good podcasts with coaches who've gone on different journeys, are like listening to their stories. And then recently my wife's got me into some podcasts that are just not rugby related, like just from originally NZ. I was born and featured in New Zealand, so most of the celebrities or whatever in New Zealand like everyone's doing podcasts now. So it's interesting to hear some of the stories of Kiwi people that you're when you're young you're watching and where they are. Now you know that stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But podcast definitely I guess from a technical tactical I haven't been involved as much as I'd like recently and I'm aware of that as well. Like I do miss getting on the grass a lot. But I guess when you're running, when you're running CPD and you're running professional development staff, you're involved, your hands on. You know you have to sometimes show and so I'm still getting that fixed a little bit. I obviously love a team, you know an actual, just the team.
Speaker 2:But it's the nature of the beast and the position where I'm at now. You know you don't want to overstep the mark and then and then I guess the mentor, mentor parts probably the biggest learning mate like that, that's. That's, that's the biggest advice I give is as, if you can access it doesn't have to be a favorite coach, by the way, it can just be someone who can, like you said, soundboard, soundboard often critique your challenge in a good way and then and then you can ask a question that they might have had experience on and you don't have to use that information. But sometimes you find there's a lot of gold in those chats. You know that that's probably the biggest, biggest area, I reckon, of ability to believe A great right.
Speaker 1:Hey, ram, this has been massively. I really enjoyed this one. Just interesting, and just the different journey you've taken from Dubai to the Netherlands, to ours to to Georgia and everywhere in between is really cool, and I think that allows you to have so much insight in different parts of the game. So, yeah, I want to say a massive thank you, mate, really appreciate it, and I'm definitely going to be keeping out an eye out in Georgia about a little bit more now, mate. So thanks for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks. Thanks, heaps, craig. It has been good to get to jump on mate. It's actually really cool, you know, because I know I watch some of your clips and stuff online the detailed analysis it's always really insightful, I think, a great tool for coaches to learn as well. And yeah, mate, I think I think people like yourself are doing really good things for the sport. So, yeah, it's been a privilege. Yeah, thank you.